The Science of Success Podcast

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When the Impossible Becomes Possible - The Secrets of Flow Revealed with Steven Kotler

Lace Gilger
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In this episode we discuss how the impossible becomes possible. We look at how to create paradigm shifting breakthroughs, dig into the science and research at the frontier of peak human performance to understand what’s at the core of nearly every gold medal or world championship - the powerful concept of flow. How do we create flow in our lives, how can we use it as a tool to become 400% more creative and learn skills 200% faster? We dig into this and much more with our guest Steven Kotler. 

Steven Kotler is a New York Times bestselling author, an award-winning journalist and the cofounder and director of research of the Flow Research Collective. His most recent work, Stealing Fire, was a national bestseller and nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. Steven’s work have been translated into over 40 languages and appeared in over 100 publications, including The New York Times, Atlantic Monthly, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Wired and TIME.

  • Wherever people are taking huge risks to change the world, you find flow 

  • How do you create Paradigm Shifting Breakthroughs?

  • Whenever you see the impossible become possible you see two things:

  • People leverage and take advantage of disruptive technology

    1. People finding ways to extend human capacity

  • Peak performance is about being fanatical - repeating, week after week, year after year, for your entire career. You have to have that level of hunger, motivation, and drive

  • Steven’s work is focused on studying the peak performance state known as Flow

  • How can we use Flow to massively level up performance?

  • Major Characteristics of Flow

  • Flow is definable - it has  core characteristics

    1. Complete Concentration

      1. Time Dilation

    2. Flow is measurable

    3. Flow is universal

    4. Flow is a spectrum experience - you can be in micro flow or macro flow

    5. Flow often mistaken for a mystical experience before it was measured and studied

  • Similarities and differences between flow and addiction?

  • What’s the relationship between the Brain’s default mode network and flow?

  • People who have the highest life satisfaction have the most flow in their lives

  • Every gold medal or world championship that’s been won - had flow at it’s core

  • McKinsey did a 10 year study on flow - it made top executives 500% more effective

  • Flow creates a 400% - 700% increase in creativity

  • Can that really be true?

    1. What is creativity?

  • Soldiers learn skills 230% faster in flow states

  • What is creativity and how do you measure it?

  • The act of creating

    1. Problem formation, idea generation, pattern recognition

  • Triangle of High Performance - the foundational principle of ultimate performance in today’s world

  • Motivation

    1. Creativity

    2. Learning

  • When you’re in a flow state you’re actually using LESS of your brain not more of it

  • Your brain is burning a lot of energy and so it shut’s this part of the brain down

    1. As your need for concentration goes up, the brain starts shutting down non-critical areas to maximize attention

  • Why does time pass so strangely in flow states?

  • Your sense of self falls apart when you move into a flow state - increasing your performance

  • Flow shifts your brain wave function profoundly

  • Flow also creates a huge dump of positive neurochemicals and stress hormones are flushed out of your system and replaced with “big five” neurochemicals

  • All five of these chemicals are pleasure drugs / reward drugs 

  • Flow is one of, if not the most, addictive experiences on earth

  • Creativity is recombinatory - it’s what happens when your brain combines new ideas with old information and creates something new

  • It’s early days in flow research - but neuroscience is still trying to figure out huge pieces of the data and research

  • Flow is a tool, it can be used for good, it can used for ill

  • Playing a video game puts you in a flow state

  • Anybody can access flow because flow stats have triggers - flow is universal provided certain initial conditions are met

  • One of the most important triggers is the challenge/skills balance - when the challenge slightly exceeds our skillset

  • Complete Concentration is the #1 Necessary Pre-Requisite for Creating Flow States

  • “F*ck Off I’m Flowing"

    1. You need 90-120 min periods with total concentration

    2. No email, no pop-ins, no distractions, etc

  • How do you tune the challenge/skills balance to trigger flow states?

  • If your challenge can be 4% greater than your skills you’re in the right zone

    1. Its totally arbitrary - it changes every day for every individual - and even within individuals 

  • Discomfort is a great trigger to know you’re about to get into a flow state

  • Peak performers have the problem of biting off too much of a challenge - puts too much fear into the equation and ends up blocking flow and locking yourself out of peak performance

  • Chunk those challenges into smaller and smaller sub challenge until they’re “slightly challenging”

    1. You have to go slow to go fast

  • “Let my people go surfing” - Patagonia

  • Training up flow while you’re surfing trains the brain to enter flow states in general

    1. Heightened creativity lasts for several days

    2. Conscious altered and being focused is usually 1-1.5 hrs

  • How long do flow triggers carry over from fun activities?

  • You can’t live in flow all the time 

  • Struggle

    1. Flow

    2. Recovery

  • You have to move through the whole cycle before you can restart a flow state

  • A place where most people screw up Flow - they take the amplified creativity from flow and ride it til the very bitter end until they are very exhausted. That makes it more difficult to jump into flow the next time. 

  • Take yourself near the end and then call it quits. 

  • Rest & Recovery is a core component of repeatedly re-entering flow states

  • Naps

    1. Breaks

    2. Reset your consciousness/ focus on another problem 

    3. Active recovery protocols are really important

    4. Watching TV and drinking a beer is not a good recovery protocol

      1. Meditation

      2. Long Sauna

      3. Yoga

      4. Hot bath, massages

  • The intersection of flow states and the Science of Spirituality

  • The same neurobiological states from flow show up in the same place as mystical experiences, psychedelic states, states of awe, near death experiences. All of these experiences neurobiologically are very very similar.

  • There is biology behind our mythology - mystical experiences are very similar to flow states. 

  • Psychedelics are super powerful for healing capacity, but there are some positive applications to boosting creativity and more. 

  • Psychedelic experiences are biologically indistinguishable from spiritual experiences

  • Oneness with everything - the perennial philosophy - in every major tradition on earth

  • From Tibetan buddhist to Franciscan nuns - the brain experience of being “one with everything” is the same

  • In Science, at every level of scale you see one-ness. The separation from the universe is a controlled illusion maintained by the brain. From quantum cells to stardust - we are one with the universe. 

  • We don’t live in reality - we live an estimated construction built by our brain. We create reality as we go along. 

Thank you so much for listening!

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